Bird Proofing Podcast Transcript

Below is the transcript of our recent podcast:  Bird Proofing.  You can listen to this podcast here.

Neil Foley

Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Pest Management with Abate, and delighted that we've got Carl Hoult, Head of Technical here today. And Carl, we're going to talk today about bird proofing and bird management. Makes sense to you?

Carl Hoult

Yes, sounds great. Morning Neil, and obviously thanks for inviting us along.

Neil Foley

And we've done a lot of bird management or bird Proofing, so let's paint the picture for people in terms of let's assume we've had a call, contact from somebody who's saying on a commercial site in particular, that they've got a problem from a health and safety issue with some birds. What's the process we've got to follow? Because they are legally protected, aren't they?

Carl Hoult

Yeah, absolutely. In the UK, all birds, their eggs and nests are protected, but there are general licences and more specific licences that allow us to consider public health to address these issues.

Neil Foley

But all birds, for a lot of people, that will come as a surprise, won't it? So your feral pigeon or whatever, of which they don't exactly look as if they're under endangered species, but all birds are protected?

Carl Hoult

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the feral pigeon is probably the most surprising one to people. A few years ago when I when I started, obviously they get tagged with the sky rat label. Where the diseases are well known, and the mess is well known but basically we can't, without justification, go around killing these birds sort of willy nilly. So what people like Natural England have done is they've asked for justification, they've given us a sort of a hierarchy of control and basically it's more down to site management and how we approach these things, as opposed to just sort of straight out killing and culling.

Neil Foley

So there's no blanket ruling that says, well, we're in pest management, so we can go and do this. Actually, every site needs to be considered as an individual. And what's the hierarchy that you go through then?

Carl Hoult

It's a little bit like with rodents, as far as we got to want to start with basically, first we need to identify what the animal is, because that feral pigeon problem, often turned out to be a wood pigeon, or it could be even a sparrow. Some people just don't know.

Neil Foley

People don't know their birds, do they know?

Carl Hoult

And before pest control, I didn't know much about them either. So every day is a school day, so obviously we need to identify exactly what the species is and then that will dictate how we can approach the problem.

Neil Foley

So just to stop you, there different species. So if it turns out to be a wood pigeon or whatever, that's different. We'd have a different option to us than if it was a feral pigeon?

Carl Hoult

Yeah, I mean, sort of the more sort of preferable end of the spectrum, which is just proofing or site management making the site less interesting to the birds in the first place. We don't really need to get into the licence and things like that. There's a thing called the GL 41, which is a general licence. A few years ago, there was about 16 species on this licence, and in recent years, it's now come down to 4, which is your monk parakeet, Canadian geese or Canada goose, your feral pigeon, and I believe it's a jackdaw. And obviously they've got their guidance’s, so anybody doesn't need to apply for a general licence. But when you're dealing with these animals, you must follow the process and the stipulations on that licence. We do a lot of work with herring gulls, and they've always been a difficult animal to deal with. They're now on a very specific licence. We're going for egg and nest removal licences at the moment, which is an AO9, and that has its own stipulations as well. That's a lot more involved. And that is a lengthy licence process with Natural England.

Neil Foley

So the general licence, we've now only got four species, so hence why you're saying the identification? Because you said there was a monk parakeet….

Carl Hoult

Yeah, monk parakeet, yes.

Neil Foley

But there are two sorts of parakeets, aren't they? You need to be able to tell the difference between a monk and it's the other one I've forgotten if it's a ring or there's a difference…

Carl Hoult

Yeah, a ring neck or ring necked.

Neil Foley

But there's only four of those on that general licence.

Carl Hoult

Only four of them on there, absolutely. And just like with rodents, people always tell you one species instead of another. Every time someone's scared of a mouse, it's the size of a rat and obviously, when people want wood pigeons off their roof, it's a feral pigeon. So we must identify, and obviously the best way of that is getting the permission of the landowner to go down and have a look really.

Neil Foley

And is that what you do on the survey? So talk me through how you do your surveys, then.

Carl Hoult

Yeah. So as an example, in the building we're sitting in now, say they call us out, maybe the tenants here are complaining, or the staff complaining about bird mess or maybe gulls being swooping. Aggressive behaviour, nesting and being defensive. And we'll come down. Obviously, we need to identify, we need to see as far as how can we improve the site. And obviously, in any business, what's the cheapest route if it's just a case of housekeeping? Maybe the bins aren't being changed enough so the girls are coming down or foods being left around with a little bit of housekeeping. The interests from the birds will reduce. If it's a favourable place for nesting, especially gulls who are, as we all know, are very defensive, rightly so then we'll have to maybe approach sort of proofing, but obviously it has to be done at the right time of year. We can't obviously be removing eggs and nest without licences in the middle of their breeding season, and obviously there's very clear laws about that. So, yeah, the first point is identification. And then sit down with the client and go through the options.

Neil Foley

And the options the hierarchy is, such, as you say, we need to make it less attractive for the birds. So it's not about killing them or culling them or trapping them at that stage, it's just trying to manage the site.

Carl Hoult

Yeah, absolutely. We've seen a lot in London and we've done ourselves. As far as with hawking and falconry, I won't talk about that too much because my knowledge that is very limited. So obviously that's fantastic because obviously it's a scare tactic. I'm using a predator bird to obviously sort of just sort of move them along, sort of passively there, and obviously that will improve the standard of the site there. That can be more of an expensive option for some people, so some people like to trial things like scarers  we'll see in the plastic owls or the silhouette.

Neil Foley

Do they actually work?

Carl Hoult

A bit controversial. I've never really got them to work. Some people swear by them, which is fantastic, because they're passive. At the end of the day, they're not going to cause any harm and you're not sort of taking too many liberties with the birds, you just simply put this down and let the bird react naturally to them. I'm not a big fan of audio scarers, but a lot of sites have them and but the things with the audio scarers, which often have a screech of either a bird in distress or a predatory bird of that species. And what will happen is as far as you can't use them in obviously residential areas because of the noise. It is a screaming bird. And when I've been in many warehouses used them the poor forklift drivers must be going mad by hearing a squawking bird all day right next to a flock of birds they're trying to get rid of. So my own experience, I'm always very open with a customer saying that we don't have great success with them, but it is a cheap option to trial at the end of the day.

Neil Foley

And what's the most common bird proofing measure that we use that I know we use nets, gels spikes, et cetera, talk us through those

Carl Hoult

If I could, on every single job, it would probably be netting. We've seen sort of through bird behaviour. We've all seen. When you walk down the High street, I talk about maybe a spiked bank or something like that as far as on a bird's drop litter in there where they managed to sort of flatten the spikes and things like this because they can get on top of them or window clean has bent them, whereby I put the ladders up and then the birds will take purchase on that. So, yeah, with netting, as long as it's maintained well and installed correctly, that's the most favourable sort of system of using. But obviously, depending on the size of the roof, the cost of that work will be in ratio. You have a large roof, it's going to be a big job.

Neil Foley

Would you net all of it or would you be looking just for the main roosting?

Carl Hoult

Yeah, every job is different. Obviously, the steep the roof, the more exposed over a roof, the less interest from the birds there. So I'm on a site that maybe has many shaped roofs and different heights. Obviously you can sort of pick your hot spots, the high risk areas there, but some companies maybe sort of new build, sort of metal kind of buildings, will just ask for the whole roof to be done.

Neil Foley

And so birds don't like the steep roofs, they like the more shallow roofs or flat roofs.

Carl Hoult

It's two things. At the end for a nest, the nest is going down to protect the eggs. If that nest is going to be sort of vulnerable to wind and weather on a steeper roof, then the bird knows best not to put that down.

Neil Foley

Right, okay. So netting and the nets come in different sizes depending on the main species. So if it's sparrows, tiny birds, it's a different size than if it's pigeon.

Carl Hoult

Yes, absolutely. It comes back down to animal welfare, which is obviously at the heart of everything we do, ironically, or so it sounds very strange, in pest control that we're there for the animals welfare. So at the end of the day, I'm generally speaking, but you're not going to put down seagull netting, which is a larger open squares for pigeons, because the pigeons may try and get through, push through and get caught and entrapped and die. And then also if you've got a gull problem, you don't want to put down sparrow netting, which is very, very small squares because they'll just use it like a trampoline and they'll nest on top, which we have seen many times.

Neil Foley

But what happens if you got multiple species? So you've got pigeons as well as starlings?

Carl Hoult

You are going to ask me that?

Neil Foley

Maybe there isn't an easy answer.

Carl Hoult

Yes, you've got to look at the target bird there and at the end of the day, it all comes down to risk assessment as far as if you have a larger and a small bird there. And so as an example, whichever way that may work, the birds are trying to net for, putting the other, that net being there, putting the other bird species at risk, then we're just going to have to look for a different method. You can't make that sort of call because at the end of the day, it is the animal welfare. I'd rather turn the job down than do it poorly

Neil Foley

Netting is the first option. Nets come in different colours, different sizes.

Carl Hoult

Different sizes.

Neil Foley

And you secure them to the side of the building, and how do you do that?

Carl Hoult

Multiple ways. I mean, for sort of some roofs, the older asbestos or cement tiled roofs there, where we may not be comfortable going on them, you can build a large metal frame that's fixed to the walls and it's almost like a big shower cap type effect put on there. So the net just sits above and to the side of the roof. So you're actually just encompassing the whole roof from the wall side not the roof, but yeah, obviously, it doesn't even sort of have to be a roof and it can just be a little side alley. We do lots of air vents and things like that, air conditioning units and things like that, which are great for the warmth and things like that. So really a shape that you can think of, you can imagine it usually you can build it within.

Neil Foley

And I suppose on a lot of buildings now, we've got a lot of solar panels as we move, you know, the green economy takes off. How do you proof solar panels? Because the pigeons, like pigeons in particular, like going under solar panels.

Carl Hoult

Yeah, it's shelter. It's just fantastic. And it just almost been conveniently put at the right size for them.

Neil Foley

There are a few inches off the ground.

Carl Hoult

Perfect. Yeah, absolutely. And obviously some sort of panels can be vast in size, so obviously the groups of birds can give a very sort of difficult to clean under and things like this. So you see the typical roof spikes, we can almost get like sort of what's the best way to explain it as far as it's like a sort of single row of spikes, or you can just use mesh in there and they actually sort of either click or I've seen them glued to the side of solar panels. And that's just almost a little prison bars.

Neil Foley

And you put them around the circumference.

Carl Hoult

Absolutely and some of the products are fantastic. They follow the contours of the roof as if you got wavy tiles and the rest of it. But once again, animal welfare the most important thing there is you can't have any birds trapped under there. You must make sure that's all cleared out and everything else.

Neil Foley

And some of the panels I've seen on roofs, you almost build on a small frame to be able to fit the mesh or to even fit nets.

Carl Hoult

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, some of these roofs nobody will ever need to go on in normal conditions. Some roofs, maybe it might be sort of a call centre, flat roof there, and you might have all the air conditioning units up there, so you will have to raise the net to a height where the workman can go up there and obviously do their job. So you may have these sort of concrete based metal poles is the best way I can explain over a podcast. And yeah, it just lifts the whole height up. And then we'll fix the cables or the metal wire between each of the poles there, making sort of almost like a table frame kind of effect, which is nets the five sides.

Neil Foley

And I've heard you talk in the past about because clearly we need to allow access for the contractors to service the unit. So you put a zip in them?

Carl Hoult

Yeah, at a very basic level. There's a few little nifty bits of kit there's, everything from little clips. They almost look like sort of paper clips. They're very discreet and they don't sort of really sort of change the shape of the net there. If they're installed out correctly. Then when you start putting sort of one or two metre zips in there, you suddenly got a big black band. Sometimes you can get in the way of lighting. When we sort of put these nets in, warehouse house canopies and that, we always try and go up above the lighting, so we don't need to put the zips in. But when we've worked on sort of nuclear power stations and things like this, where the guys see what work when going up there with serious bits of kit, they don't want to be sitting there with harnesses and everything else trying to push through a little zipped door. So we'll actually have a full blown metal doorframe put in, just like a fire escape door. So all the whole sort of metal box will be netted and then the guys can just walk in and out as long as they get the door closed, please, to stop the bird getting back in.

That's one of the biggest things for the zips, is workmen, or contractors just leaving the zips open and undermining our efforts.

Neil Foley

No, I could well imagine. So netting I get that. I understand that is the next most popular route, or common route that we would use would that be spiking?

Carl Hoult

It's a whole different product. Okay. So as an example, in a big open roof, you're not going to put spikes on a big open roof to stop the birds being there. You can stop them perching on the edge, of course, and messing over the side onto people coming into the building and things like that.

Neil Foley

That's quite common, isn't it? Spiking along that perimeter.

Carl Hoult

Absolutely. Window sills, edges of buildings, gutters. There's lots of good products out there where we actually got gutter clips, so they can actually stop the birds nesting in the gutters and causing problems there and then. So, yeah, it's more of a perimeter thing. So where a set of spikes and they do come in with different widths and different amounts of spikes per strip.

Neil Foley

Well, depending on the target species?

Carl Hoult

Absolutely - different lengths of the bigger bird use bigger spikes. There are some companies out there, we're using fantastic small spikes now, very discreet. And I think I've seen one product recently, which is for every metre, they have about 280 spikes on them like that. So they're pretty good bit of kit. I'm not sure if they've been licenced for burglars, trying to stop them getting in your house.

Neil Foley

And I think I'm right in saying, from a pigeon's viewpoint, they won't land on them, because as they get close to them, it sort of touches their feathers and it just disturbs them….

Carl Hoult

That’s exactly what it is - they're trying to land on it on a metal spike. There's another product sort of in similar sort of idea to that, which is I always call it pin and wire, which is sort of almost like sort of setting up a neck of a guitar. So you've got these pins set out, and they're only a few inches off the ground and sprung wires. Once again, different species require different strength of springs and such. And once again, it's a case of put them on ledges and apexes of roofs and things, and as soon as the bird comes into contact, it gives way a little bit and sees that lack of stability is how old was interpreted it.

Neil Foley

And most birds would persist for probably a couple of weeks or so, wouldn't they? And then start to realise that actually, you know what, I'll go. Because all we're really trying to do is move them next door.

Carl Hoult

Move them next door, absolutely.

Neil Foley

That's all we're doing.

Carl Hoult

I mean, some pigeons where we've proof so well. Yeah, sort of. It's almost sad that you'll see the pigeons just sitting outside the netting for the longest of times, especially if that's they've had generations of egg laying there and things like that. They associate that with their home. Not to get too much empathy to them.

Neil Foley

No.

Carl Hoult

But unfortunately, health and safety comes first.

Neil Foley

And I hear you talk about gel pots.

Carl Hoult

Gelpots, yeah.

Neil Foley

That sounds most bizarre to me because I don't quite understand how they work.

Carl Hoult

Yeah, they're good. They are good. And even though our company has had so much success with them, I just don't believe in them. That sounds funny, but they do work very well. And we've got some very notable buildings where we've got these absolutely covered in them. And all it is for people who don't know is imagine going to a takeaway, maybe a famous pizza chain, and you get the little dipping tub sources on that and it almost looks like it as well.

Neil Foley

That's the sort of size they are.

Carl Hoult

Yeah. Very slim lined, maybe sort of ten mil. Little height of these clear tub. There might be more products of different colours and things like this. And it's got this gel in there and a lot of people call it fire gel and it sort of as it is explained, as far as that, it will give the impression of fire once again, I'm not sure. Ultraviolet, it gives off a scope that the pigeons will see and uncomfortable with once again.

Neil Foley

So you have to lay them at certain spaces. One to do six yards isn't going to cut it.

Carl Hoult

No, of course not, because they'll just sit between and that once again, you sort of play to the size of the birds you're dealing with there. Obviously, for something like seagulls, the things sometimes feel like they stand six foot five tall and they're not going to have any interest in them. Whereas pigeons, being a perching bird, because of the claws, they want to be on the edges that are there, and that's where they come to strength once again. Like with bird spikes, they have to be used for ledges and things like that. They're not sort of a big open area sort of solution.

Neil Foley

I know we have used them in churches and cathedrals because they're discrete.

Carl Hoult

Discrete. They're low profile. They have to be changed, obviously, because they will eventually gather dust, anything from outside and the odd feathers and things like that. You've really got to be sort of intelligent when you put these down, in the sense that don't put them on a lower ledge and not do the ledge above, because the pigeons are certainly above ledge and they are mess down and they fill them up above. I've seen that mistake on many people on many sites.

Neil Foley

So we've done a fair bit in that. I know in particular in London, we do a lot of balcony proofing for domestic homes or blocks of flats where they seem to be plagued with pigeons don't they have balconies and walkways and we tended to use nets there.

Carl Hoult

Yeah, absolutely. If you think about the average balcony, maybe sort of three to four foot, and then sort of maybe six foot wide types, you can't put spikes on the hand railings, you can't put glue pots on the handrailing.

Neil Foley

People want them often.

Carl Hoult

They often want them. They don't want the net. They say they feel enclosed. And especially for the more narrow balconies, if you think from your waist to the top of a door and you've only got sort of two foot incline there, that net is directly in their face. Especially if you're sort of six foot odd like myself. So I can definitely understand that. And they also feel the darkness of the nets and things, so I totally get that. And obviously, with the door opening out….

Neil Foley

Makes it harder as well.

Carl Hoult

But yeah, it's very common. And when things if it comes down to a health and safety sort of aspect, as far as not having the birds fouling on the balconies and things and that kind of a lot of people like their kids playing.

Neil Foley

The other thing I wanted, you can blow your own trumpet here because you've also done bird proofing in very unusual areas, haven't you?

Carl Hoult

Yeah.

Neil Foley

I know you did a big water tower not that long ago, which seemed amazing to me. Talk me through that one.

Carl Hoult

3 years in the planning. It's a listed building and it's also sort of quite famous landmark

Neil Foley

A functioning water tower?

Carl Hoult

Functioning water tower. It's sort of a point of interest to a lot of people in the area, down on the Essex coastline. It got so involved as far as it was almost like we were building a circus tent. It was because the whole water towers round and because of how low the actual the canopy walls were there, or the parapet wall, sorry, and the inside was like a big sort of curvy donut. Imagine a big donut on the inside. It was almost sort of like one of these sort of American NASCAR tracks on the inside.

Neil Foley

Was it seagulls the problem there?

Carl Hoult

They had a little bit of everything. Seagulls were the least of the problems, but they were aware of as far as predatory birds in the area and that. So we actually had sort of a lot of environmental risk assessments done there. It was weighed up against the health of the workers working on the water tower, and we were given the go ahead.

Neil Foley

So you netted the whole thing?

Carl Hoult

We netted the whole thing and it's still standing strong.

Neil Foley

And I think I'm right in saying you had to fabricate your own fixings and there was a lot of work involved.

Carl Hoult

It was a huge amount. I said, there's some fantastic supplies in the UK of bird proofing that, but because of just the nature and how this thing was built, everything just didn't quite fit. And every sort of product we looked on in the market just fell short one way or the other. So, yeah, we had to have our own stuff fabricated. Obviously, lightning was a huge risk there because obviously we had all these sort of it was nearly eight foot. We had to raise the height of the net. It was a really big project and it was fantastic. It was lovely to see that the designers who done that actually built the whole water tower in 3D include the internal staircases, obviously, over the top. But it's a fantastic bit to see your work come to life in a 3D image like that.

Neil Foley

And we've also done some specialist work in some universities. I know we've done various walkways and pathways and I know that actually we did one in Preston, didn't we?

Carl Hoult

Yes.

Neil Foley

Isn't our normal patch at all, is it?

Carl Hoult

No. I took five guys up there where we were there for, I think, just over a week. It was their new 18 million pound student building there. And obviously it was fantastic, good looking building and it looks even better with our bird on top of it. So it was very discreet. It was very discreet. Huge project. And where we got the big flat open roof, there was a couple of plant rooms, but they also had sort of student lounges up there in there as well. And obviously they didn't want the birds messing and they're nesting up in that area there. So obviously, once it's deemed appropriate for us to do all the netting in there, we proofed the plant room. So the job itself wasn't anything overly out of the norm, but it was just the setting. The nets were gigantic.

Neil Foley

But we've also I suppose the one I'm most intrigued by is the nuclear power station.

Carl Hoult

Yes, that was a long job. There was a long job. The first job was as a balcony, so we had to prove that that was with netting once again, metal access doors and the rest of it. But the interesting thing about that, due to the age of the power station, and I don't know if this is for modern power station as well, every single hole we had to drill had to have one of the lab techs there checking the dust for radioactive material or concrete.

Neil Foley

Every single one.

Carl Hoult

Every single one, and for all the bird proofers out there listening when you sit there and think how many holes….

Hundreds. Absolutely hundreds. If you just take sort of a largest net, maybe 15 by, say, 20 metres, something like that. If you're putting in a fixing in the wall, every foot type thing down, hot water net, that heavy. Yeah, that was a long, long time. And because we had to stay as group for security, the moment one chap needed the toilet, everybody had to come down and then we're heading up and then you get to the top and then one of the other chaps like.

Oh, it's time for a smoke break.

And that was our host.

So when he had to go for a smoke break, everybody had to go back down!

Neil Foley

So you did netting, but you also did a laser didn’t you?

Carl Hoult

The lasers were fantastic. We're very proud of that. I don't know if we're going to get slapped on the wrist as far as when you shouldn't sort of interfere with pre made bits, but before the lasers became automated that are on the market today, we had a very good engineer who sussed it quite quickly so he built his own app and everything else. And the whole laser on a tripod was remote because the health and safety of the power plant was they didn't want people going up on the roof while there's one of the lasers up on there.

Neil Foley

So the laser just shines a light?

Carl Hoult

It has a spectrum of light. It's very difficult for us to see when it's fog and dark, we can see it, but in general daytime, especially, it's a bit sunny, the strength is obviously weakened there, and it's often used for fields and things like this, big open spaces. And we were tasked with, can we have one laser to 116 roofs?

So we took up to the top.

One laser and it was fantastic. So, yeah, we sat there, we put this huge sort of programme together and we were teaching the guys on site how to sort of run these. The supplier in the UK came over and sort of taught our guys how to use it as well. So it was a real great collaboration and obviously we were a little bit cheeky because we modified it, but in the name of health and safety, so we'll stand by that.

Neil Foley

But it’s stood the test of time because this is a few years ago.

Carl Hoult

A few years ago. This is the first generation of the tripod lasers, a mounted laser and it's still standing there going to work.

Neil Foley

Because it's a high building, isn't it? Really high on the coast.

Carl Hoult

I think we're talking about 13-14 stories, something like that.

Neil Foley

So that's exposed to a lot of weather, isn't it?

Carl Hoult

It is indeed. And the buildings we're looking after, I think they're about two to three stories and there's about 16 different roofs. And so it was just having that sort of foresight that the wind could affect the laser if it wasn't fixed properly. And obviously the energy was a big problem because, ironically, on a power station, we couldn't plug the laser in. They wouldn't allow it. They they didn't want any more fixing because the power station is being decommissioned. They weren't going to put a power source in first, so it had to be one of batteries. So that had to have, then, solar power. But being in England, the solar isn't always there, not on the scale of power as we could put up. Then we had a wind turbine attached to it as well. These elements did actually fail and that wasn't down to us. The site engineers, they just sat there and they did actually run a cable on the side and put it in as hard wire, so then, basically, they can just flick it off and on there. So if the remote system didn't work, they did actually have a cable switch at the bottom, which is, from a health and safety point of view, is the best way forward .

Neil Foley

And I know the other thing you showed me yesterday when we were on site together is on the top of a lamp post or a light, I don't know how you describe them, like hedgehogs.

Carl Hoult

I would describe them as like a sort of early season, 1970s Star Trek alien head dress. It's almost like a baby's mobile. I believe the product name is sort of the Daddy Long Legs. All it is there's a spindle at the bottom. This will be fixed, either screwed down onto a wood surface or can be glued…

Neil Foley

And these were glued to these lamps.

Carl Hoult

These were glued lamp posts. This is for herring gulls and their aggressive behaviour as far as just protecting the nests. And this little spindle has these sort of long arms and they do come in different size, I believe some of them got sort of a metre per strand of wire, so imagine a big baby mobile with a little torch hanging off it, maybe we should put a little hawks on them, I don't know. And they just slowly turn on the wind and they said the fantastic here, we put some down a few years ago and as you said, we went to site yesterday and they were still standing strong..

Neil Foley

There and there were no birds there.

Carl Hoult

No birds and they were they were robust enough to deter herring gulls which are the big biffers, nearly the biggest ones, they're definitely up there with the big boys.

Neil Foley

So that works well.

Neil Foley

Herring gulls are the ones that we're normally worried about in terms of so what would people do then if we're on a commercial site? They've got problems with gulls or with birds generally possibly blocking gutters because they are a flood risk, aren't they, in terms of when they're on particular commercial buildings where they've got all their crap and rubbish in all the drains and everything else washed down?

Carl Hoult

Yes.

Neil Foley

So what should they do? Just get in contact with us to have a survey?

Carl Hoult

Yeah, absolutely. Obviously every building is different. It's not so much the newer buildings, some of the older ones like sort of schools and things that we could be go to the guttering isn’t sort of as good as it could be to maybe some of the more modern standards and that. So we can offer obviously just a general sort of management plan for their staff and cleaning and this and the other, that they may not need us, which is obviously the job done promoting good pest control. Then if they do want something a little bit more substantial, maybe they don't want their workers going on the roofs all the time, cleaning up after the gulls and the birds. So obviously doing the property damage then a netting solution maybe will work. Or we even have electric track as well, which is another sort of system that we use, Avishock and that sort of stuff. There's all these different systems in place there.

Neil Foley

And so there's lots of solutions once we understand the problem and because we've done work in hotels and commercial buildings and offices and you name it, we've done it. So there's normally a solution which will fit the problem but it's just doing the survey to start with and just having a conversation.

Carl Hoult

Absolutely. And just really just don't expect your pest controller to come up or turn up with a rifle and start shooting everything. It gets very, very frustrating, especially when you do up and go, well, Bob down the road, got an airrifle, at least, happy to come down here. And at that point, we didn't lose interest because it's not right, it's not the law of the land, and there's always a solution which will win for the pigeon or the specific bird and win for us as an industry.

Neil Foley

And we're talking about pest management.

Carl Hoult

Pest management.

Neil Foley

Well, it's been brilliant. I've learned a lot. Thank you very much indeed, Carl. And anybody who's interested, just get in touch and let's talk and see where we go from there. Thanks very much, Carl.

Carl Hoult

That's great. Thank you.